Chicago Classical Music

On June 28 James Conlon, music director of Ravinia Festival, joined CCM members for an hour-long live chat. This is an edited transcript of that conversation. Participants are identified on first reference by organization, when provided.

Adriana Avila (Ravinia Festival): Hi everyone! I'm the moderator for the chat. James will join us very soon! We welcome all the guests to please join in and ask questions.

James Conlon: Good evening, I am delighted to spend this time with you today.

AmyButterfly: Is the music of Schulhoff of value beyond its historical importance?

James Conlon: Yes, I am not defending music of this period that I do not consider objectively good music. The historical context is important as an entre to the music, but ultimately it is about the music itself.

And I feel strongly that we must present the overall period of music in repeated committed performances over a long period of time before we can fairly judge individual pieces on their merits.

AmyButterfly: What should I listen for on a first hearing?

James Conlon: Just close your eyes and listen to the music. And feel whatever feelings come naturally.

Shannon44: Hi all, just joined in, it's an honor to be speaking with you, Mr. Conlon.

James Conlon: Thank you Shannon, I am delighted to speak with you as well.

Shannon44: I really enjoyed hearing Ullmann last year, I'm glad you are continuing the “Breaking the Silence” series.

James Conlon: I think you will get to know Erwin Schulhoff this summer. We are concentrating on the early periods in a series of concerts. They roughly break down into the WWI period, the Dadaist period of the post-war and early 20s, the "Czech period" and the Marxist period.

Adriana Avila: Maestro, can you tell us about how you discovered this incredible music?

James Conlon: In the early 90s I became deeply interested in the music of Alexander Zemlinsky. I was General Music Director of the city of Cologne Germany at that time. In the course of my years there, I performed and recorded all of his works for orchestra and three of his eight operas.

While reading about him, I started to learn about other composers who had been suppressed in the years 1933 through 1945, and whose music remained unplayed after the war because it was essentially unknown by the young generation.

The names Franz Shreker, Viktor Ullmann, Erwin Schulhoff, Karl Amadeus Hartmann -- to cite just a few -- came up, so I started studying their music.

The result was to discover that there are literally hundreds of pieces of music (if not thousands) from this entire period of music that have never been given an extended hearing.

The historical and artistic loss to all of us is considerable. It is ironic that at the end of the 20th century we believed that we knew the full history of classical music in that century.

Shannon44: I wasn't aware of Ullmann's music until I read about it on the Ravinia website

James Conlon: We in fact know very little of this very large group of composers who were, at least in part, young struggling composers.

AmyButterfly: How is it this music created in concentration camps survived at all?

James Conlon: Amy, this project is broad and is meant to showcase a group of composers whose life experiences were very different, but the fate of their music is all the same. For the most part, their music was prohibited after 1934. There was no opportunity for their music to be played or heard.

Consequently, in what was to be the greatest rupture of the Germanic tradition of passing on new music from generation to generation, this entire group of composers remained unplayed after 1945.

Amongst the composers whose lives ended in concentration camps, Viktor Ullmann stands out as the most productive, having completed 20 compositions in two years in Terezin. Schulhoff wrote but did not complete two symphonies before his death in a concentration camp in 1942.

Please remember that the Nazis banned Jewish music retroactively, even Mendelssohn was not played. The "older" generation, including Zemlinsky and Shreker (who died in 1934) had already written most of what they were destined to write before the ban.

This means that most of the music was neither written in concentration camps nor had the "need" to be discovered. It existed, had been performed, and in many cases very successfully so.

The case of Viktor Ullmann is special. Everything written in Terezin was found in London in the 1970s. His pieces that are lost were all written before that period. Some have been found since, but some remain lost to this day lost.

Pavel Haas and Hans Krasa also wrote in Terezin. But for the most part their music was largely written before the war.

Shannon44: It's honorable that you are making people aware of it

Eusebius: Any chance we'll get Krenek's Jonny spielt auf?

James Conlon: Jonny spielt auf, of course, is an opera, and I have difficulty imagining it in the context of Ravinia, but it is a very important work – not least so because the Nazi authorities used the poster for this opera to advertise the famous "degenerate" art exposition in Dusseldorf.

Eusebius: Why not in the context of Ravinia?

James Conlon: Because in general we can't stage operas, and I believe that the theatrical element of this work is especially important.

Eusebius: I see.

Gklapper: Maestro Conlon, I am very happy that you are conducting the last three symphonies of Shostakovich this summer. I am deeply interested in his music and I recall hearing you talk at Aspen two summers ago, about his Ninth Symphony and how it represented an act of defiance of Stalin. Could you talk some about this?

James Conlon: Klapper, in the spirit of the post-war victory of Russia and the allies over Germany, Stalin was of course representing himself as a great patriotic hero. It was expected of all artists to pay homage to him, and particularly Shostakovich.

By coincidence, it was time for him to write his Ninth Symphony the long shadow of Beethoven's Ninth, if not to mention also Bruckner and Schubert (although it may be his Seventh Symphony), and even Mahler, led to inflated expectations.

From the first bars of the Ninth Symphony, it was clear that Shostakovich walked away from the grandiose, and with his ever wry wit and irony "disappoints" all of Stalin's expectations of a symphony of triumph and praise. It is not so much about what Shostakovich did in this symphony as what he did not do.

Eusebius: What operas would you like to do in concert at Ravinia?

James Conlon: I can imagine certain works that work particularly well in concert. I can certainly imagine some of the operas of Zemlinsky working well in concert.

[Regarding an earlier question], it is very hard for me to say that I have a favorite. I cannot make that choice with any more ease than if you asked me did I prefer Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner or Verdi. Perhaps because I know his music the longest, I would say Zemlinsky, because I have had the most time to let it mature with me over the last 15 years.

I find the wit, social commentary, and innovative imagination of Erwin Schulhoff particularly impressive. This is as much so for the chamber music and solo piano pieces as it is for his orchestral music.

Gklapper: Thanks for your response about Shostakovich. Do you accept the portrayal of him by Volkov in Testimony?

James Conlon: There are many view points on Testimony, and I do not feel qualified to make a judgment on that book. I certainly have read it cover to cover. There are still many people living who knew the composer personally. Some agree, some disagree.

AmyButterfly: Is Shostakovich finally getting his due as a master?

James Conlon: Fortunately, Shostakovich's greatness is now beyond question, and, as always it resides in the music itself, with or without the historical context.

Eusebius: Do you have a desert-island composer?

James Conlon: I have 50-70 desert island composers. I don't want to choose. I cannot.

Steve Burkholder (ChicagoClassicalMusic.org): Mr. Conlon, what do you think are important ways that technology can expand the classical audience?

James Conlon: I am convinced that everyone can love classical music. It is important for all of us who love it as a way of life to reach young children as early as possible. Earlier in the 20th century, a lot of this happened in the schools and in the home. That is less true today.

So I think that we all have to make a greater effort to show young people early what a great and wonderful world is waiting for them in the form of classical music. CDs, iPods and the computer are all great ways to do it. The important point is that it gets done.

Shannon44: That's true. I myself did not have music education in grade school.

PhrygianGates: I did, but it was not very technical. I think that it may have been more interesting and effective to involve more technology (computers, ipods, etc.)

AmyButterfly: Is Schulhoff on the same program as Brahms for a reason?

James Conlon: Schulhoff and Hartmann both belong to the German tradition. At the beginning of the 20th century, there were various views on music that were produced by antagonistic schools of thought in the 19th century, most notably, Brahms versus Wagner.

Strauss, Schoenberg and Zemlinsky were all finding ways to harmonize these two conflicting schools. Brahms was still a major figure in composition at the time that Schulhoff and Hartmann came into the world. Schulhoff played for Dvorak as a child, and Dvorak was a life-long colleague and admirer of Brahms.

Steve Burkholder: Do you think that listening in general is a long lost skill? Do think this can be taught?

James Conlon: Steve, every human being is born with the capacity to listen. It is ultimately a personal choice -- if we listen, and to whom or to what.

I do not believe this skill atrophies, but it can be trained by its use. And if it is hard to listen to a five-hour Wagner opera, it will certainly become easier by doing so. If some pieces seem too complex on a first hearing, they will most likely become more accessible through repeated hearings.

That is not to say that everything that is overtly complex is good, but it is to say that classical music can be defined as music to which we can return over and over again with increased appreciation on each hearing.

Eusebius: Do you think the orchestra itself is a turn-off for today's kids? All they're used to hearing is electronic instruments.

James Conlon: I am convinced that were you to experiment with the music that children would hear between their birth and 6 years old, that if they only heard Brahms and Bach and Beethoven to the exclusion of everything else, they would singing and whistling those composers as if they had gone to a conservatory.

I do not think there is any problem with orchestral music for our young people. On the contrary, it is simply a question of habit. And if we get them on a regular basis to listen and to enjoy, many will do so for the rest of their lives.

Adriana Avila: This is the perfect time to wrap things up. We have a few short minutes. Thank you all for all of your questions and input.

Maestro, any closing thoughts?

James Conlon: I hope that all of you close to Ravinia will have a chance to come and attend some of our concerts this summer. Goodnight everyone, thank you very much. I'll see you at Ravinia.

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