Chicago Classical Music

On January 12, 2007, John Ryan of Music of the Baroque hosted an informal chat with the CCM Listening Group. Below is a transcript of the chat.

John Ryan (Music of the Baroque): Welcome to the listening group. Jonathan when are you doing Christoher Theofanidis' Here and Now in Pittsburgh?

Jonathan Mayes (Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra): At the May 4/5 concert.

John Ryan: Is it the American in Paris program?

Jonathan Mayes: Yes, the American in Paris Program - although obviously the Theofanids 'Here and Now' is the bigger part of the program...

John Ryan: Bartok anyone?

Jonathan Mayes: Yeah, Bartok

John Ryan: I'm always surprised at how nonchalant the opening is. It almost sounds like an improvisation.

Susan Platz (Music of the Baroque): Yes, John! I agree! Also, at first I thought I was going crazy because the pizzicatto sounded like a lute! (that could just be me, though...)

Steve Burkholder: Is this an earlier work? It sounds a little less turbulent.

John Ryan: I'm not sure when it was written, I think I read that it was later.

John Ryan: Lute - I can see that.

Susan Platz: yeah, just that first little part.

Jonathan Mayes: It's actually quite late on, around 1940 I think which is surprising - but then, it's so very different from other Bartok - probably because of the Benny Goodman collaboration

John Ryan: I'm listening to the Benny Goodman/Bartok recording now. a pretty good recording.

Steve Burkholder: Did B.G. play the premiere?

John Ryan: I think he did play the premier, and, keep the rights for a few years so he was the only one who could play it.

Susan Platz: Speaking of turbulence, though, I did find the majority of the work to evoke unsettling vibes. I wish I could pinpoint the harmonic reasons for this... can someone less rusty with music theory enlighten me?


Jonathan Mayes: hmmm...Susan, difficult question - but I think it's the odd combination of the Bartok folk-theme style and the jazz influences, so what you've got is all of these augmented chords but played in a way that isn't typical of jazz.

Steve Burkholder: I think the harmonic reasons are that he wrote atonally and superimposed those folk tunes over chords that didn't fit in the formal sense. CSO just had a great presentation of Miraculous Mandarin where they illustrated some of this before the playing the whole piece.

Jonathan Mayes: Ah, Steve's answer is much better! I wish I'd heard that!

Susan Platz: I see. Both of those observations are great, thank you!

John Ryan: Speaking of American in Paris, did the last mvt remind anyone of the Gershwin? I was listening while doing the dishes one night and swore I heard an urban beep-beep, beep-beep.


John Ryan: Steve, a bit off topic, but how was the presentation?

Steve Burkholder: The presentation was fantastic! They're doing the same treatment with Rite at the end of the month.

I never put it together that Bartok and his contemporaries grew up in such a desolate time. According to the presentation, he was living in a place where murders in the street were a way of life. Lots of filth and noise from factories and machines. That's why I'm surprised at how much lighter Contrasts is.

John Ryan: Then it leaves that idea, but for a moment I thought of American in Paris.

Steve Burkholder: Yes - love the street sounds in that piece!

Jonathan Mayes: Wow - great contenxtual observation. You've got to wonder how detached Bartok was when writing Contrasts then. I mean, the rest of his later music is so much moodier

John Ryan: Steve, did you know Contrasts before this? I remember it from 10 or 15 years ago and thought it was a difficult piece...now, it sounds so much - like you said, lighter

Steve Burkholder: No, I heard it the first time this week. To me, it also sounds much more mature which makes sense. It sounds more "round" or complete in a way.

John Ryan: This is going to be on a program with his 6th string quartet. I wonder how it'll sound beside that.

Susan Platz: Did Bartok use folk melodies that his audiences would have recognized in Contrasts or themes that were reminiscent of folk-ish stuff?

Jonathan Mayes: Good question Susan.

John Ryan: Susan, that is a GREAT question. I know he collected tunes, but I dont' know if his public would have recognized them, like we'd recognize Yankee Doodle Dandy.

Steve Burkholder: So, they might be in there but they're not like "jimmy crack corn" or something like that :)

Jonathan Mayes: Just looking in Grove, in case!

Susan Platz: Ah, OK.

Jonathan Mayes: Ha!

Susan Platz: Haha, Jimmy Crack Corn :-)

John Ryan: Jimmy Crack Corn - cracks me up!!

Susan Platz: Oh yes, please do consult your Grove! Google can only get me so far...

Steve Burkholder: I was just listening to the last movement and it really does sound like American in Paris! Just through that Bartok filter.

Susan Platz: ah, I did find something, actually.

Steve Burkholder: Nice link Susan.

Susan Platz: enjoy!

John Ryan: Not to stop Bartoking, but let's move on the H&N.

Susan Platz: Haha, enough Bartoking.

John Ryan: I think that most works have an "entry" movement. It's the movement that grabs me and becomes a sort of anchor. For Instance, I remember the firest time I heard Beethoven's 7th sym. The 2nd mvt grabbed me and I kept returning to the work and gradually got to know all of it.

Jonathan Mayes: Hmm - interesting concept like the slow movement of Mahler 1 for me

Jonathan Mayes: So which is it in the Theofanidis?

John Ryan: For this one it was the Blessings movement

Steve Burkholder: I agree with you John. I've been listening to Mvmt VI a lot since you mentioned it the other day.

John Ryan: I actually pulled off the road to hear it again

Steve Burkholder: Goosebumps. Just ethereal stuff.

Susan Platz: Yes! I'm totally with you on Mvt. VI

John Ryan: ...then I found myself listening to the mvt before and the one after and rounding out the whole thing that way

Jonathan Mayes: Agreed wholeheartedly

Steve Burkholder: I see what you mean - I do that a lot myself! It might have been the same for me with Beeth's 7th.

Jonathan Mayes: You know, it's especially true of a work like this where you have so many movements...

Susan Platz: This might be an obvious observation, but I found I appreciated the music *so* much more after I read the text! That Rumi. What a guy.

John Ryan: Ditto - another thing I loved about this was the poetry

Jonathan Mayes: Yeah, it's interesting that he used Rumi - we talked about that quite a bit, and Chris is quite taken with him.

Steve Burkholder: To me, this is a giant love song. Is that what the lyrics indicate?

Susan Platz: Yes, I agree that it reads like a giant love song! But, interestingly, these words were directed to his friend Shams of Tabriz, with whom he had an intense spiritual, teacher/student relationship (right?).

Jonathan Mayes: The lyrics are definitely a love song with the interesting 'sermon-like' interjections of the tenor...

Jonathan Mayes: exactly right Susan

Steve Burkholder: Ahhh - interesting! Divine love. iTunes downloads can only take one so far...

Jonathan Mayes: Although I'd still say that they express love

Susan Platz: Definitely, divine love

John Ryan: A qestion about the 3 kinds of women: one is a tresure - (is that the womean you marry and is all yours?), the second who is half yours, or the third who is not yours at all?

Steve Burkholder: Funny - I'm just coming to that movement on my 'phones.

Susan Platz: Yeah... I really can't piece together what he means about the 3 kinds of women.

Steve Burkholder: Faith, Hope, Charity? Wild guess.

Susan Platz: The text is so interesting... some is so lofty and, to me, inaccessible; but at the same time, some texts are so easy to relate to! (e.g. Insomnia)

John Ryan: Steve, you're cracking me up.

Steve Burkholder: I like texts like that that give you something to chew on and explore as your life goes on. With a musical backdrop.

Susan Platz: I agree Steve

Steve Burkholder: I mean a musical backdrop that gives some insight into the meaning of the words. A context or setting to solve the puzzle.

Jonathan Mayes: So true Steve - it's really not at all obvious - but the music is appealing enough to warrant multiple listenings...

Interestingly from our end, we had a premiere last season of another work written on text by Rumi, completely different, similar text (although in the original Persian), but musically it couldn't have been more disimilar.

Susan Platz: Wow! In Persian! That must have been a beast for the singers to learn!

Steve Burkholder: Who was the composer?

John Ryan: what was it? who was it by?

Jonathan Mayes: Wow - got your attention! It was by a local composer (well, he's originally from Iran) Reza Vali. Michelle DeYoung sang it did an amazing job

Steve Burkholder: Interesting - I studied at Duquense and played some new pieces by an Iranian student. He was working with David Stock, I believe. [ed: it was indeed Reza Vali]

Jonathan Mayes: ha! I wonder if there's a connection

Steve Burkholder: Now that I'm thinking about Rumi, I'm hearing some middle-eastern melodies in there! Just got to mvmt. XII. Intense percussion and unique perspectives on composition.

Jonathan Mayes: I LOVE that movement XII it's the one movement that's sexual...in ilk.

Susan Platz: Yes, definitely middle-eastern sounding in many parts

Steve Burkholder: Yes - XII is just great! Urgency of love. Regional percussion in there. Doumbeks and finger cymbals.

Jonathan Mayes: and all of that tension!

John Ryan: interesting - this is the only duet

Jonathan Mayes: Right - I asked Chris about that - he said the text just led to that outcome

Susan Platz: Speaking of sexuality (sort of), I was really struck by the soprano-tenor duets, esp. in Mvt. XII, The Urgency of Love. I marvel at their perfectly matched inflections... I wonder if that's indicated in the score? Those speech-like inflections?

Jonathan Mayes: Makes sense, I guess, but what's even more interesting is that they're singing in octaves

Steve Burkholder: I noticed that too. Kind of opera-ish at that point.

Susan Platz: yeah!

John Ryan: I love the line - the way you make love is the way god will be with you.

Jonathan Mayes: YES! Their octaves are really intense/effective.

Steve Burkholder: Wow! Rumi is like the Persian Shakespeare in a way. Lines crafted to last and be relevant for eternities.

Steve Burkholder: Just finished the piece - I love how it opens up in a HUGE way towards the end.

Jonathan Mayes: you see why we can't wait to hear it live here?

John Ryan: We're getting to the end of our time. How about Fri Feb 9th, same time?

Susan Platz: wow! time flies

Jonathan Mayes: that works for me

Steve Burkholder: What are the performance dates in Pittsburgh for the piece, again?

Jonathan Mayes: May 4&5

Jonathan Mayes: I'm hoping to make it to Chicago for the Bartok now too. What are those dates?

Steve Burkholder: Where is the Bartok playing?

John Ryan: Bartok is with the Chicago Chamber Musicians with Bartok string quartet #6, Kurtag Hommage to Schuman, and Kodaly duo.

Steve Burkholder: What should we discuss next time?

Jonathan Mayes: Good question!

Jonathan Mayes: Perhaps a suggestion from Steve and one from Susan?

John Ryan: no problem. let's throw some ideas

Steve Burkholder: Maybe a chamber piece and larger, symphonic piece again?

John Ryan: The Bartok is on March 18 & 19

Susan Platz: Well, I'll tell you right now that I'm completely biased towards early vocal music. What about a few Gesualdo madrigals?

Steve Burkholder: Susan, that's a great idea.

Jonathan Mayes: Oooh Susan I love that suggestion

John Ryan: Susan, anything specific?

Susan Platz: oh goody! haha, i though you'd veto it

Jonathan Mayes: alright!

Steve Burkholder: I've got one - Fog Tropes by Ingram Marshall.

John Ryan: Steve, I've never heard of it. I'd say let's do it with some Gesualdo.

Susan Platz: (i'm looking up some madrigals now... i'm not sure which ones to pick)

Jonathan Mayes: Ok - can you post them John? I have to run

Susan Platz: Yeah, can we do that?

Steve Burkholder: Oh yeah - we've struck the hour! Nice Chat!

Steve Burkholder: Fog Tropes can be found on "American Elegies" on Elektra. I believe there's some Terry Riley and John Adams on there too.

Susan Platz: Thanks everyone! That was lovely

John Ryan: Great, I'll post. see you all on the 9th...found the marshall on iTunes. Bye everyone, thanks for a great meeting!

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